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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Topic: Scientific Theory
    Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:16am
I might be wrong here, but as I understand it, a valid scientific theory is one that can be falsified, meaning that although it may be impossible to prove the theory is correct, there has to be a way to prove it wrong, using evidence.

So scientific types throw out "theories" like "creation" because they say there is no way to prove it, or actually to falsify it. Or have they thought they've falsified it?

I wonder if you say that God exists, you have a theory that God exists let's say. Maybe you can't "prove" it. Nor can you falsify it, can you? Provide evidence that demonstrates that God actually does not exist?

What if your theory is that God does not exist. Can you "prove" it? Can you falsify it? Are there tests you can run that will show you that in fact God does exist, proving your theory wrong?

I don't think so... neither way can be proven, neither can be falsified. (Unless you are a believing person and sees proof of God's existence, or falsifiable evidence to the contrary in everything, everywhere, all the time.) But that being the case, neither theory is more valid than the other. Selecting one is entirely a matter of choice, not scientific proof.

Either decision is based on faith. Positive faith (that God exists) or negative faith (otherwise.) So when atheists say they don't want to have "blind faith" in some religion, or in God... they still have blind faith, don't they? Because their theory is no more valid than that of a religious person.

I had this thought tonight. It could have holes in it. Just thought I'd throw it out there for examination, though.
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M.A.R.W.A.N
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 5:12am
Some good ideas (one in particular). If the average joe can't prove/disprove either way, then they have to admit faith, which makes them no better off than the contenders as far as doubt goes.
 
Except to say, from my personal point of view, all religions have a drastic flaw within them, mainly contradictions of each's own message. All but one at least, as a result of the its main evidenciary source, the Qur'an.
 
When I was a kid, to me Islam was a theory that made sense. Upon examination I've lost all doubt and am sure it is the truth. I don't expect to convince others with this argument of course, they can freely reject the proof I've accepted.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 5:14am
Hi Amy,
 
When a theory becomes valid it ceases to be theoretical. In order to move from theoretical to accepted fact the scientific method has to be successfully applied. Namely that the theory must be observable (measurable) and independently verifiable.
 
When it comes to theories like the existence of God we are really in the realms of philosophy rather than science because much of the "proofs" simply can't be verified within the scientific method.
 
 
Faith is a strange word. I don't think it can accurately be applied to a state of non belief. An Atheist rejects the concept of faith through lack of verifiable proof. He doesn't have a different theory which he seeks to prove, only an inability to accept other theories.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 6:50am
Oh but he does--he has many other theories to explain things and continues to seek theories to that end. They can not measure nor verify the non-existence of God, yet they affirm the statement all the same, that God doesn't exist (a3udhubillah) while having no proof, evidence to prove or disprove their claim. So there is as much faith involved, but instead of calling it "faith" you can call it arrogance and rebellion. It's nothing more than a blind assertion they wish in their hearts, precisely what they call religion. So their disbelief is as unjustified as they consider belief to be.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 7:38am

I think the key is the emotional need that leads to belief. For example it has always seemed strange to me that some atheists get angry when debating. From a standpoint of non belief there is nothing to defend and therefore be offended by. So why do some Atheists get emotional about their unbelief? Do they need for there not to be a God?

As an agnostic (primarily) I can say my "need" is that the creator not be like that described by the religions. I don't need for there not to be a creator.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 8:00am
The scientific method can only reveal knowledge about the physical aspects of existence. Whether that knowledge can reveal understanding of the nature of that which caused creation to exist is the real question. I would like to believe that it can.
 
Imagine an alien, never having seen a human, studies a human artifact (say a bicycle). Could he derive knowledge of what a human looks like (the Bicycles creator)?
 


Edited by Bill2702 - 15 July 2007 at 8:02am
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote M.A.R.W.A.N Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Imagine an alien, never having seen a human, studies a human artifact (say a bicycle). Could he derive knowledge of what a human looks like (the Bicycles creator)?
 
 
 
What if the bicycle came with a manual regarding its creator, along with a well known trusted alien to deliver a message from said creator to all the other aliens.....
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote thejnk Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix


I wonder if you say that God exists, you have a theory that God exists let's say. Maybe you can't "prove" it. Nor can you falsify it, can you? Provide evidence that demonstrates that God actually does not exist?

What if your theory is that God does not exist. Can you "prove" it? Can you falsify it? Are there tests you can run that will show you that in fact God does exist, proving your theory wrong?


Aviatrix, the error in your argument stems from a misunderstanding of the term scientific theory.

A theory in science is not an idea, a hypothesis. A theory is a model that attempts to explain a set of natural phenomena. For example the theory of gravity attempts to explain why masses attract each other. The theory of evolution attempts to explain the origin of species on the earth.

On the other hand the propositions "god exists" and "god does not exist" do not attempt to offer an explanation for physical phenomena and are  therefore not scientific theories. They are rather idle philosophical speculations.

Now the propositions "a god created life on the earth" or "a god created the universe" could have been valid theories because each attempts to offer an explanation for observable phenomena around us. However, as you correctly have stated, a theory that does not present some means by which it can be empirically verified is not considered a valid scientific theory. And so in this regard, neither these propositions are valid theories.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LionKing Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 2:36pm
Hello Folks.....long time.

God isn't a theory in my opinion. It's 100% blind faith. If I said to you a frog is running the universe, when asked to prove it, I would say the frog is outside the universe and therefore cannot be proven, this frogs favourite colours are blue and green, which is why Earth is blue and green, I 100% believe this to be the case.

This holds just as much weight as any other theory outside the the bounds of the universe.

If you notice the universe, it
it's like a big folder in Windows, there are electrons and atoms which group to make cells, which group to make molecules, which group to make tiny bacterial creatures to the largest mammalians, whch live on a planet, in a star system, which is part of a galaxy, which is part of a group of billions of other galaxies which are part of the universe, which is part of..........a billion other universes, which are part of a single electron in some animal lol....ok I made up the last two things, but really...life is a mystery and we all have no idea.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Bill2702 Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

Originally posted by Bill2702

Imagine an alien, never having seen a human, studies a human artifact (say a bicycle). Could he derive knowledge of what a human looks like (the Bicycles creator)?
 
 
 
What if the bicycle came with a manual regarding its creator, along with a well known trusted alien to deliver a message from said creator to all the other aliens.....
There is only the bicycle Marwan.
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Aviatrix  
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Aviatrix Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 3:40pm
Now the propositions "a god created life on the earth" or "a god created the universe" could have been valid theories because each attempts to offer an explanation for observable phenomena around us. However, as you correctly have stated, a theory that does not present some means by which it can be empirically verified is not considered a valid scientific theory. And so in this regard, neither these propositions are valid theories.


Thanks for correcting me, about the attempt to explain some observable phenomena.

By the same standard, would it be fair (and I'm asking because maybe the negation would make them weak) to say that there could be a theory "life developed on earth without the help of God" or "God did not create the universe"?

Wouldn't they be subject to the same scrutiny as the two you suggested, because they cannot be empirically tested and verified?
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote LionKing Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 4:08pm
There currently is not a theory of everything among the scientific community, there are a few ideas but not theories.

They just say they don't know because there isn't enough known to establish a full theory. However if someone puts forward a theory (ie. God) the onus is on them to prove it. Most theists base arguments on pure assumptions, ie. life is complex, therefore requires a designer.

If I throw a blob of paint on a canvas with force, the resultant picture would consist of hundreds of varying shapes, of different consistencies, infact, in some galleries this is considered art!

It looks complex, but it's not, the mechanism was very simple. Leave the paint long enough and it will evolve, it would drip down...it would change colour etc, due to outside influences, ie. air and gravity. The same way creatures evolve, due to many many influences.

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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote Ceshune Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Bill2702

Originally posted by M.A.R.W.A.N

Originally posted by Bill2702

Imagine an alien, never having seen a human, studies a human artifact (say a bicycle). Could he derive knowledge of what a human looks like (the Bicycles creator)?
 

 

 

What if the bicycle came with a manual regarding its creator, along with a well known trusted alien to deliver a message from said creator to all the other aliens.....

There is only the bicycle Marwan.
That is reverse engineering.
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Rating: 0 of 0 votes Quote thejnk Replybullet Posted: 15 July 2007 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Aviatrix


By the same standard, would it be fair (and I'm asking because maybe the negation would make them weak) to say that there could be a theory "life developed on earth without the help of God" or "God did not create the universe"?


Actually no. Because the proposition "life developed without the help of god" does not attempt to explain how life actually developed. It merely states that the model of some other theory is wrong. So it is not really a theory, at least not in the scientific sense of the term.


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